SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Understood. Been there.

I've got to say, I'm one of the few members who's been following your journey pre- this site. So I really want you to come out of this on top -whilst simultaneously trying (on ongoing battle) to understand my perspective of 'on top' may differ to yours. Ultimately as long as you are trending towards happy.

Sorry for late reply... was out of office all last week at CLE.

Quick review of thread and I didn't see this mentioned; I apologize if it's been addressed but:

The question of whether your WW is capable of cheating again is not only moot, I mean she's already cheated several times. She's just attempting to put the toothpaste back into the tube again which is really hard. So yes, she's capable of cheating at a drop of the hat now and in the future.

The REAL question, Gemmy is-- is your WW capable of being a faithful spouse living in a monogamous relationship?

Because from what I recall she brought her active and current lover to your wedding and then picked up 2 more APs in the subsequent years. This navel gazing of "her view of me was jaded from very early on, and that some of that likely came from needing to justify her betrayal before we were even married" is just BS marriage history being rewritten to justify her actions. Why did she get married in the first place if she was already jaded on you? She was never faithful or monogamous with you the entire time you were married.

And I don't count the time from D-Day until now as being faithful... how would the people in the lifestyle call it? Monogamy under duress?

I think you need to ask your WW if she is just polyamorous and can she accept that she is and live her life truthfully? I believe there are several books on the subject that she may want to explore.

But that's for some other man to deal with and risk in the future. You simply cannot afford that risk of her attempting monogamy with you going forward, Gemmy.

I'm sure in your readings you've come across the story of The Scorpion and The Frog. Some people are just scorpions and cannot change their ways or feelings. Don't be confused by the waywards that post here- they are the true exceptions to the rule. The long time waywards that have posted here, have done the necessary work and have changed. I believe your WW couldn't make it here after posting, what, twice? The overwhelming majority of waywards never change, we just simply don't hear about them until they hurt some other poor person who comes here and posts.

Freedom Day still scheduled for October 28, right? Good luck.

Hopefully this is not too off-topic/TJing, but I couldn't read this and not respond:

I think you need to ask your WW if she is just polyamorous and can she accept that she is and live her life truthfully? I believe there are several books on the subject that she may want to explore.

NukeZombie: You're using "polyamorous" like it's an undeniable, unchosen sexual orientation, rather than a practice. Yes, some people can develop attraction to and feelings for multiple people, and some people enjoy having multiple partners and/or don't mind their partner having multiple partners. But that doesn't mean that those people can't choose to enter into and remain in faithful and monogamous relationships if they want to. It's not like being gay and then getting lavender-married to pretend you're straight. Polyamory isn't some immutable property of a person.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 3:53 PM, Tuesday, September 15th]

@GotTheMorbs

I haven't thought too deeply on the topic but I'm not sure I agree. It's interesting to consider though.

I'm friends of friends with a polyamorous couple - they in fact make the exact argument you've dismissed. That it was akin to a sexual orientation. Perhaps added to the fact was female was bi-sexual and said she'd find her sex life entirely unfulfilling without being able to experience both sides. I understood their arguments. It was consensual and they seemed happy - so no judgment from me. Just not my bag.

I guess I think of my own sexual interests. To keep this PG. I could theoretically box my desires and engage in a strictly vanilla arrangement for life. Maybe that would be possible. But I'd be entirely frustrated. It wouldn't lead to cheating because of my principles but may lead to divorce. Attempting to suppress your desires for life seems a recipe for disaster.

It stands to reason that some people are fundamentally not suited to being monogamous. In such circumstances, forcing them to engage with monogamy is akin to a lavender marriage. Perhaps Gemmys wife does fit this description, perhaps not.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 4:57 PM, Tuesday, September 15th]

You're using "polyamorous" like it's an undeniable, unchosen sexual orientation, rather than a practice. Yes, some people can develop attraction to and feelings for multiple people, and some people enjoy having multiple partners and/or don't mind their partner having multiple partners. But that doesn't mean that those people can't choose to enter into and remain in faithful and monogamous relationships if they want to. It's not like being gay and then getting lavender-married to pretend you're straight. Polyamory isn't some immutable property of a person.

I strenuously but respectfully, disagree with this Morbs. Some people are simply incapable of being monogamous in a long-term relationship. Now, I believe it's very rare in the general population but it is very much akin to sexual orientation- it's who they are.

Just like the flip side, there are people that can only be monogamous and would never consider having more than one partner at a time. Do you believe this is their choice, Mobs? Do these people each day wake up and tell themselves "Today, I'm going to stay monogamous" No, it's because it's who they are. Now, to be honest the number of these people is also pretty damn rare but thankfully more than the other group but not by a whole lot.

I believe the vast majority of people fall into a spectrum between these two groups (where, admittedly, personal choice/morals/upbringing/ability to resist temptation/etc. comes into play and what most of these threads deal with); but at the extremes of this spectrum- it's baked into their DNA.

Ok, this may have been the threadjack to end all threadjacks...sorry Gemmy.

You are right to demand clarity in vocabulary. Your responses seem to indicate you are very clearly capable of discerning your WW's processes and having the conversations. I had very similar discussions with my fWW. Were she to use the word "incapable" in this context, I would insist that she not use it.

"You are as capable now as you were then. You can tell me you would have made a different decision if you knew then what you do now, you can tell me you now have a visceral disgust for your own bad decisions, and you can even tell me that faced with the same situation now you would fervently reject it and run like a bat out of hell. But 'incapable' is patently and provably untrue, so don't use it."

I also steered her away from ever saying or doing things to make me trust her, because that kind of manipulation made me trust her less. "Just change. Tell me why you're doing it."

I'm friends of friends with a polyamorous couple - they in fact make the exact argument you've dismissed.

Then they're equally wrong.

Experiencing attraction to multiple people at once, being okay with your partner being with others, or desiring multiple relationships at once may not be a conscious choice, but whether you enter into and remain in a faithful, monogamous relationship, or engage in multiple relationships at once sure is. If you don't think you can be happy or satisfied with just one partner, that's one thing. But plenty of people could be either poly or monogamous and still be happy, and elect for one or the other.

It's not inauthentic to not engage in polyamory just because you could.

Like me, for example: I could date multiple people and I think that would be enjoyable. I wouldn't mind if my husband dated multiple people either; that's just how I've always been. But I'm also perfectly content with only being with my husband for the rest of my life, because he is enough for me. I'm not like, over here constantly pining about all the missed connections and sex with other people I'm not having because I'm "pretending" to be monogamous when I'm really polyamorous.

I didn't cheat because I'm incapable of faithful monogamy. I cheated because I made shitty choices.

I'm not down for any "if you experience attraction to anyone else but your partner, you're doomed to be unfaithful" purist bs, either.

But that's the last I'm gonna say about it.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 9:50 PM, Tuesday, September 15th]

You can debate a linguistic concept forever but in the end you have to do the work and see what comes of it.

I think for us BS we can’t do better than 95% certainty. Never 100% again. Maybe it was never 100%?

Then they're equally wrong.

Experiencing attraction to multiple people at once, being okay with your partner being with others, or desiring multiple relationships at once may not be a conscious choice, but whether you enter into and remain in a faithful, monogamous relationship, or engage in multiple relationships at once sure is. If you don't think you can be happy or satisfied with just one partner, that's one thing. But plenty of people could be either poly or monogamous and still be happy, and elect for one or the other.

It's not inauthentic to not engage in polyamory just because you could.

I see it the same way.

This is what being honest looks like. We all have the potential to be polygamous or monogamous. They are choices, either choose a deep connection with one person where you are fully invested or many shallower connections with multiple people.

I know both very well, and they are mutually exclusive. They are both ok, but trying to mix them both together and pretending that works is dysfunctional.

I am sure we all know people who we are fond about and we know they engage in some behaviors that are odd. Even if they are dysfunctional we tend to excuse and justify the behaviors simply because we are fond of them. It’s human.

I know cheaters who are utterly deceiving themselves that they aren’t hurting their partner and making the couple happy. The polyamory one is a very trendy justification for their behavior, just one of many. More fashion statements will come.

Is still just bullshit, selfish validation chasing excused to unsee the pain and abuse you are causing to others.

PR it enough and gets accepted, goebbles style.

You can be happy and decent being polygamous in the open, honestly and with no apology. It gives you variety and fallback options. No matter how you look at it, it’s a friends with benefits situation because it can’t be anything more. And that’s fine.

Or you can form a connection investing everything in a person. That’s a way deeper bond. No backup, no options, "only" the most intimate connection a human being will ever experience in their life. It takes everything you are and have and repays you in the same way.

Those are two sides of the same coin. Both are fine, can’t mix them though. No matter how much you lie to yourself that you can.

I think for us BS we can’t do better than 95% certainty. Never 100% again. Maybe it was never 100%?

Trust is an existential human need. It’s the main ingredient for love.

Giving complete trust is not naive, it’s natural. That’s why it hurts so deeply when is broken.

The difference between 100 and 95 is simple, like this:

- I love you
- I live you, but…